Aral Balkan

I've run into a design limitation with the MacBook Pro that I curiously hadn't heard mentioned in my extensive (read: obsessive) research before taking the plunge and buying one: The screen doesn't tilt back enough. I type a lot with my notebook on my lap (in case of the MacBook Pro, due to the crazy heat, I put it on its second skin cover, not directly on my jeans) and not being able to tilt the screen back is a major ergonomic annoyance. Also, this is going to be a problem when presenting at tilted podiums.

This thread on MacNN forums discusses the issue further.

Comments

• How much more of an angle would you require to be happy with the tilt? I wonder if its not a *design limitation* but a design feature... perhaps too much of a tilt would compromise a component or the hinge? If it does indeed suck, you could always work up a wedge of presentation foam to place under the laptop when it is on one of those tilted podiums.

  by eric.dolecki on 2006-08-16 13:55:41

• To add to what Eric said about design feature, it could even be that if the lid opened any further, the weight balance would shift too far back and cause the laptop to fall back on its screen.

  by John on 2006-08-16 14:38:10

• Not that much more, actually, although most other laptops I've worked with have been able to go almost flat. Another 15-20 degrees would make it usable for me in most situations. John: I've never had that happen on a laptop. The screen is nowhere as heavy as the base :)

  by aral on 2006-08-16 15:25:56

• I agree, it's a little annoying. Maybe it has something to do with air flow since the vents are under the screen hinge. Regardless, this will seriously impact the degree to which I can slouch on the couch ;-)

  by Tom Cornilliac on 2006-08-16 15:26:58

• Personally, I find the limited screen angle to be a major annoyance on a 2.16 MBP. Enough that I am going to have to verify that they've remedied the situation before I upgrade. Previous models had a more than adequate screen tilt range. Why did it change? Has anyone opened up their hinge to make modifications that proved suitable (like filing off the stops)?

  by Johnny Mnemonic on 2006-10-15 03:59:05

• Yes, I hope the new release of the Core 2 Duo models today will correct this. Currently, the MBP's are the only laptops I've seen that won't tilt back as far. All the iBooks, PBs, and even MacBooks don't seem to have this limitation. This is especially a problem for me, as I am kind of tall. I have to slouch down to to get to a 90 degree viewing angle even with the laptop on a desk or table. If I put it on my PodiumPad, even at the most shallow setting, I would have to slouch WAY down. I've never had this issue with an Apple laptop before. It would even be worse if really used in the lap, as it would be lower still, and need to tilt back further. -Steve

  by Steve Wilkinson on 2006-10-25 08:49:51

• Just an update.... according to the new manual for the Core 2 Duo 15" model, the angle is now the same as the MacBook or previous PowerBook. YAY! I just hope this is not a typo. -Steve

  by Steve Wilkinson on 2006-11-08 04:59:24

• I have a new MacBook Pro C2D 15" and I can confirm that the hinge limitation issue HAS NOT been remedied. I agree with the comments above that this is a major annoyance (that I was unaware of until I purchased). I like to use a Podium CoolPad to angle the keyboard slightly and let air circulate underneath the unit. With the screen all the way back, I now have to slouch to get a proper veiwing angle. On top of this, the viewing angle of the screen used on the MacBook Pro is very narrrow..much more so than on my vintage TiBook. Apple should have done better!

  by John on 2006-11-09 15:35:11

• Oh drat. :( I had hoped that it was corrected. -Steve

  by Steve Wilkinson on 2006-11-13 10:53:01

• Maybe I'm being stupid here, but isn't it obvious why the MBP screen doesn't tilt back very far? The MBP tilts less than the PB because it has the same hinge design as the PB but is thinner. Clearly the thickness of the notebook limits the tilt angle. (Imagine how far back it'd go if the hinge were mounted at the midpoint of a 2" thick *book). So to get better angles, either Apple sticks to the same hinge design but makes the notebooks thicker (not necessarily a bad idea! -- More air space inside, better cooling; plus thicker isn't necessarily substantially heavier), or they switch to the standard PC top-hinge, ... or they surprise us all with an ingenious new design that's both super-thin and decently tiltable. (I'm betting on this last one ... )

  by Dinosaur on 2006-11-17 04:26:28

• Hi Dinosaur, No, this seems to be the confusion between the 'really' old PowerBooks and the new vs. the MBP. Yes, on the very old PowerBooks, they used a top mounted hinge, which tilted back nearly 180 degrees. I guess this was a good thing for some folks, but the hinges did break a lot. The current hinge design is common to the Al PowerBooks, MacBooks, MacBook Pros (maybe iBook even, I can't recall). Yet, only the 15" MBP has this issue. My Al PB 15" 1.33 GHz G4 sitting right next to my MBP has the same hinge design, is also 1" thin, and tilts back to 135 degrees rather than 120 degrees. My wife's MacBook also tilts to 135 degrees. Granted, this is partly an issue for some of us, as noted above, because we are wanting to use our laptops in our laps. Some it is because of use on a Podium Pad, or on a real podium. This could possibly even pose a problem with 135 degrees in some cases. BUT, my issue is that I am 6'1" tall (which isn't all that tall these days), and even on a standard desk, the screen won't tilt back far enough so that my eyes are looking at the screen straight on. When this happens, lighter colors wash out (light highlighting, etc.). To compensate, I have to hunch down. This is kind of crazy, when I never have this problem with my Al PB, or my wife's MB, or any other Apple laptop..... other than the 15" MBP. There certainly could be some actual design issue here, but it's not the thickness of the laptop (or my Al PB wouldn't be able to do it either). I'm guessing it might have more to do with moving the airport antenna into the hinge area... but there *should* be some other solution to this considering how bad this tradeoff is for a good percentage of the user-base. I'd rather see the airport antennas move back into the screen to be honest.... the reception is not THAT much better, if any that I can tell. -Steve

  by Steve Wilkinson on 2006-11-18 10:22:18

• Oopps.... that should have read (like highlighting, etc.) -Steve

  by Steve Wilkinson on 2006-11-18 10:27:19

• It's as some others have said: the design of the hinge makes it impossible to tilt back far enough. I actually can't use it as a laptop very well because of this - If I sit straight up on a chair or couch, the vertical viewing angle is so bad that colors are distorted and the screen is dim and blurry. That's simply poor design. If the hinge no longer works because of how thin laptops are becoming then Apple needs to re-design the hinge. Simple as that. ALL other notebook have displays that can be tilted far back and hinges that last for years. There's no reason Apple can't do it!

  by Peter on 2006-11-21 18:37:47

• There are a lot of things that annoy me about the MBP, but this is one of the most blatantly annoying. Has this annoyed anyone so much that they've tried to return the MBP and get a MB (which apparently can tilt back further)? I'm thinking of trying this, even though on the website they make clear that returns aren't something they're happy about. Apple should either get more practical designers or get a better customer satisfaction policy. Ridiculous!

  by Nate on 2006-12-16 16:26:47

• I just bought a 15' MacBook Pro and I find the 130-degree tilt angle to be EXTREMELY annoying. I'm average height, 5'10", and when I'm sitting at my desktop and have the screen opened as far as it will go, the screen is pointing at my chest instead of my eyes and I find myself always wanting to lift the front of the notebook up so that the screen is pointing directly at my eyes. Either that or I find myself slouching down so I can see the screen better. This is a big problem for me since, being 49 years old, my eyes don't work as well as they used to. This is really the only design flaw I've noticed with the MBP but it's an extremely significant flaw. I must say I'm very disappointed with Apple's design. :(

  by Robert on 2006-12-31 14:08:35

• SURGICALLY ALTERING THE HINGE? I have a new mac book pro 15" and like others here, I am really bothered by the screen tilt limitation. I have a plan: It seems like the case will actually permit the screen to tip back another 45 degrees or so, and that the hinge itself has limiters on it for the purpose of keeping the bottom of the screen from touching a desk surface. I am thinking about taking off my screen bezel and surgically altering the hinges to remove this limitation. I could protect the screen case from my desk with a piece of tape, and anyhow, the main place I want to tip the screen further is in my lap, where scratches on a desk surface won't be an issue. I've seen iBook screen hinges and done a bezel replacement operation. The hinges are attached to the screen bezel part, and, as far as I can remember, there's a little bump that sticks up from the hinge pin inside the hinge sleeve to keep the hinge from spinning 360 degrees. I think the bump could be filed down. A new screen bezel for the 15" MBP is about $150 on ebay-- it seems worth the risk. Anybody seen the MBP screen bezel/hinges already?

  by Mason on 2007-01-03 23:40:22

• Oh, and by the way, "Dinosaur" (above) is right about the reason the screen tilt is limited on the AlBooks and MacBook Pros: If their screens tipped any further the bottom of the screen would scratch the desk surface. The MBP is thinner, thus tips back less.

  by Mason on 2007-01-03 23:47:40

• This issue will be solved with a case alter, hopefully as MWSF2007. Apple could do one, two or all of three things (that I can think of). 1) Lift up and slim the actual hinge so it apears to be almost exactly in the same position but will actually rotate slightly different leaving the bottom bezel higher off the surface. 2) Use a slimmer display (perhaps the new LED that's rumored) and slice the thickness of the lid. 3) A new case could feature a lid with a taper on the bottom-back edge--UNLIKELY that Apple would do that.

  by Dan on 2007-01-05 01:27:15

• we should file a class action suit against apple claiming that the screen tilt deficiency caused extreme back and neck pain, plus eye strain :P

  by Nate on 2007-01-14 21:26:01

• Let's all sue APPLE!! Well would be gr8 if we can sort of hack the hinge, and yeah indeed apple could just do a little system that would lift the back of the MBP a bit so the screen if it tilts back more, wouldn't toutch the desk and get scratched. This would also improve the ergonomy of the MBP as it is so unconfortable to use for long times as it is a boxy laptop, instead of these nice sony designs where the front of the laptop gets thinner to place the palm of your hands.

  by Emeric on 2007-03-30 01:02:04

• Can you update if you have managed to change your hinge and if yes, how... it would be great to see if it worked. Thanks a lot

  by Emeric on 2007-03-30 01:07:26

• I find the tilt limit on my MacBook is also very annoying. Goes good with the crapy view angle! I hope apple are reading forums like this and know where they need to improve!

  by calvin on 2007-05-14 13:37:09

• Recnently purchased MBP... that's the first thing I noticed is the crappy limited screen tilt! Barely able to use it sitting straight with laptop on my knees. Very, very, very annoying and seemingly dumb mistake by Apple.

  by MBP Owner on 2007-05-22 20:32:37

• I've just bought my first ever Mac. It's a MacBook Pro 15" C2D. And the limited screen tilt angle is by far the worst thing about it. It's a very poor design, in my opinion. (Great STYLING, but poor DESIGN.) I'm 6'3" and I cannot use my laptop as a LAPtop! I reckon it's a cynical ploy to ensure the illuminated Apple logo is always visible (and I'm only half joking!) Even my ancient PIII laptop goes back over 180 degrees! How could Apple have made such an appalling oversight? If I'd have stumbled on this blog beforehand, I may not have purchased. Maybe this will be my last ever Mac too...

  by Robb on 2007-05-26 09:49:29

• Did anyone ( Mason ? ) have any luck with the surgical approach to improving screen tilt ? Are there any companies which sell hinge retro fitting services like this? I don't need the screen to tilt completely flat, but this problem is a shockingly serious design flaw, for any laptop, but particularly for an Apple product !! I just bought a MBP 15", but am considering returning it if I can't find a workaround to this problem....

  by Zeo on 2007-06-11 17:59:32

• July 2007 Anyone come up with a surgical hack for this yet? The limited screen tilt is insanely annoying.

  by Russ on 2007-07-13 19:03:24

• I recently bought a (15" intel-duocore) macbook ,something that i'd been thinking of doing since using an ibook a handfull of years ago. The inability of the screen to recline further is, in my opinion, a dreadful design flaw. I've written to Apple expressing my annoyance. The previous ibook's screen went flat. It was SO user friendly. Why change ? Damn, had i have known about this before i bought the macbook i'd have looked for an old ibook and saved myself a bundle. A Pissed off MacBook user.

  by webpro on 2007-06-30 00:42:41

• Interesting thread - I thought it was just me! I've been thinking of switching to an MBP when my trusty Dell Inspiron 8600 finally gives up (I like the machine, just getting weary with windows!). I've borrowed my brother's MBP for the weekend to try it out. It's a great machine, BUT.... ...THIS TILE ANGLE IS CRAZY!. I often use my laptop sitting on the sofa with my feet resting on a low table so that my thighs are actually ~ 20 degrees above horizontal. This means the screen is barely at right-angles to the floor, let alone my eye line! Table use is little better (I'm 6ft). My Dell goes back over 180 degrees which is great. I can even stand it vertically in a cook-book stand and use an external keyboard & mouse, thus raising the screen to a conventional 'workstation' height. :) I think this is a deal breaker on the MBP as far as I'm concerned, I'm afraid. :( sim

  by sim on 2007-07-14 09:50:49

• As someone who is thinking about switching to a Mac, this problem is very concerning to me. The screen on my current laptop (a Dell D420) pushes ALL the way back -- completely flat with the table. There are lots of times I find myself pushing the screen pretty far back. Not all the way, but close. To be honest, this problem would drive me nuts, and it is seriously keeping me from buying a Macbook Pro. QUESTION: does the Macbook also have this problem? Or is it only on the Pro? Thanks...

  by SoundsGood on 2007-07-17 14:07:51

• It's not a Mac-killer, but yes, the screen on the MacBook Pro doesn't go back far enough. It was clearly designed for people who are about 5'8" tall. The rest of us have to slouch a bit. An odd design flaw. I've seen worse.

  by David on 2007-08-05 10:45:46

• Dang! This is a major design flaw. I just recieved my new MBP after using a powerbook for the last few years provided by my employer. I'm thinking about returning my MBP becuase of this. I use it sitting on the couch all the time. As a school teacher it is also a pain when the computer is just sitting on my desk - i'm slouching to see it straight on, and can't stand near my desk and read anything off it. Apple should know better, especially for $2,000!!

  by Nathan on 2007-09-02 15:44:13

• Some info I've learned over the past few days that might be relevant. There seems to be a some variation in the max amount of screen angle on the MBP 15 inch model. My 5 day old computer will only go back around 115 degrees, while the one on display in the store easily goes back about 130 degrees. This is a huge difference, and I am certainly going to return my computer - as far as I'm concerned, it is defective and unusable. Also note that there is an Apple document, #86289, stating that the screens on all the MBPs (15 and 17 inch) should go back approximately 130 degrees. So if you are dissatisfied with the screen recline, I would suggest finding a protractor, measuring it, and return it if it is not close to 130 degrees. Dan

  by Dan on 2007-10-16 23:07:57

• Thanks, Dan, that's interesting.

  by Aral on 2007-10-18 10:44:01

• OK - do this at YOUR risk After reading several posts like this, and being just as pissed - i just said screw it, and took my new (12/07) 15" macbook pro 2.2gig, laid it opened (all 130 degrees)face down on the formica countertop, watched the hinge carefully, and simply worked it open wider and wider - pressing gently, bending the hingepins, etc. Ive got it at about 65 or 170 degrees and thats about where i feel i better stop - but now i CAN use it laying in bed, etc~!!!!

  by swing on 2007-12-09 21:01:49

• A follow up to my earlier comment (above)...I had a particularly tight hinge that would not open up past almost about a 100 degree angle. After pushing it back, gently but harder than I was comfortable with- the screen is now at about 130-140 degrees and it is MUCH better. Nowhere near as nice as my 12" PowerBook, but at least this is usable. I don't feel like I wish I could return it anymore but I am still puzzled that it doesn't go back further.

  by gragegrl on 2008-03-28 05:41:28

• After 12-hours of MacBook Pro ownership, I had to return it due to the screen problem. Here's my story (and my link to this most excellent blog posting on aralbalkan.com) http://www.pud.com/2007/10/macs-are-for-short-people.html

  by Philip Kaplan on 2007-10-31 21:40:04

• I sadly will probably not buy the new MBP (though I really want to) due to this design flaw. I am tempted to try to fix it, but spending $2K on a laptop and having to then try to fix the screen tilt angle with the possibility of damaging it in the process doesn't sound very appealing. :(

  by softchewy on 2008-02-29 23:27:22

• A lot of people have said this is a problem if you are taller, but believe me it's awful even if you are short. I'm only 5'3, use my 15" MacBook Pro on a desk and I am constantly (without thinking) tipping the whole thing back to get a better look at what I'm reading. (It must be worse if you are tall though!) When the machine is flat on the desk, the brightness is a tiny fraction of what it is when tipped back another 15 or 20 degrees. I am moving over from a 17" PowerBook G4 and having serious second thoughts. I bought a refurbished MacBook Pro, with no idea about this problem. I NEVER would have bought it if I'd known. Like others here I'm interested in hearing about a solution. I work long hours as a writer or editor, and this is unacceptable. I am thinking of hooking it up to an external monitor (and just not looking at this one). But I wanted to be able to take this traveling and work around the house. The whole point was not to be shackled to my desk.. Jennie

  by Jennie on 2007-11-19 18:21:39

• Hi there, great thread. Just got my MBP 15.4" 12/12/7. Screen angle=bad Screen is also bent when the system is shut. Just tried the laying it on its front trick, and that's loads better! Still not perfect, but nice one! Dan

  by Dan on 2007-12-20 14:55:10

• Recently I upgraded from a PB 1.67 Ghz from late 2005 to the 2008 MBPro 2.4. The low screen angle is one of my biggest peeves of the new MacBook Pro design - until now! I had considered just trying to bend the screen further back, but was worried about breaking the screen or hinge. After carefully pushing the screen back much further than I felt comfortable doing (10-20 times, gradually increasing the pressure), I can now match the opening angle of my Powerbook. Excellent! Thanks to Swing for being the first one to take the plunge. I report no problems, and a much more useful computer as a result. Cheers! Note: Of interest, I was also considering buying a Macbook Air. The screen also does not go far back - except ONE computer I saw in store (5th Ave) would go back ALL the way - completely flat - really cool. I asked a sales assistant, and he said it had happened to the Air in the last day or two, and was not normal...but clearly possible with no ill effects. :-)

  by Matt on 2008-07-19 10:06:18

• I have a MacBook PRo and am also annoyed. However, my colleagues also have Mac Book Pros and they are getting an addition 7 degrees at least. So I think this is something that afflicts different version of the MBPs. Mine is a 2.4 Ghz.

  by Jon on 2007-11-08 04:47:37

• A few more thoughts... Apple used to refer to the limited vertical viewing angle as a 'security feature'. Their reasoning was that it minimized the chance of someone walking by and seeing what was on your screen. In early laptops there was a way to set the viewing angle by adjusting the bias voltage on the LCD. Usually you could get to this adjustment through one of the hatches (battery, memory, etc.). I'm curious if there is such an adjustment in the MacBook Pro (either user or service tech accessible). Unfortunately I am a small time Apple customer so usually rate only the scripted answers from Apple Care. If one of you are a corporate customer, perhaps you could investigate this further. Finally, has anyone seen a difference in viewing angle between the Matte and Glossy screens?

  by Ron on 2007-12-08 16:07:43

• I bought a 17" macbook pro with hi-res LED screen. The screen is absolutely gorgeous but the limited hinge angle is really annoying. I wish i had spent that $3000 elsewhere.

  by Rick on 2008-04-04 11:22:59

• THANK YOU !!! this is a serious problem and I have even considered buying an older refurbished model just to avoid this. At my last Job we had several models of varying age, and one day I lined them all up and sure enough with each new model the screen title angle has become less and less. WTF! why even bother making a laptop if it is this unusable. I am really surprised this has not blown up over the internet.

  by tkny on 2008-05-22 20:49:04

• I'm 6'5" and the viewing angle is annoying to say the least. In addition I got this computer to do video conferencing (iChat) while away from home base. If I tilt the display enough to get reasonable color saturation and contrast, the camera only sees the (bald) top of my head. Unfortunately this was a custom configuration so Apple won't take it back.

  by Ron on 2007-12-08 15:33:54

• I got my beautiful MacBook Pro for Christmas and the screen tilt has bugged me (every day)since. I'm getting used to it and nothing will induce me back to the Dell (not even the flexibility of its screen but this morning when I googled my annoyance at the screen rigidity, I wound up here. Nice to know I'm not alone. I'm not yet brave enough to flip it and mess with the hinge! You're a brave man, Swing!

  by Lin on 2008-02-23 17:12:07

• Having read this thread (and watching my co-worker effortlessly open her 2-year-old MB to a workable viewing angle), I'm now considering the gentle-pressure idea as described on my newish 15" MBP. UNLESS anyone's had a bad experience doing this--has anyone?

  by UnHinged on 2008-10-21 22:55:19

• i hated this design flaw from the start, but got used to it. But the other day my 13mo old daughter pressed on the screen, i was afraid she was going to break it. I just realized tonight that she increased my angle! i think its a little looser now, but i guess thats ok, b/c now i can sit on the couch with my feet up and use may laptop!

  by nycmommy on 2008-01-12 03:58:17

• I usually work while sitting on a couch, in bed, or while standing at a 36"-tall kitchen island. (I'm 5'9" barefoot.) The tilt angle is absolutely maddening, all the more so considering Apple's obvious dedication to design and interest in ergonomics. I previously had a (very expensive) Dell whose only redeeming feature was a full 180 screen tilt. I came up with a very high-tech solution: take a kitchen towel, roll it up, and place it under the edge of the laptop near-most to your belly. This raises the keyboard (making it easier to type, I believe), increases the screen tilt, and provides the much-needed cooling mechanism. Not enough tilt? Get a bigger kitchen towel. :-)

  by abs on 2008-11-09 20:46:12

• I just bought a new MacbookPro 15 " and I had no idea this was an issue. I'm only 5' 6" and it is a HUGE problem for me. HUGE. I can't believe they thought this was acceptable. Unfortunately, mine was built custom with the 250gb hard drive so I can't return it, or I probably would.

  by gragegrl on 2008-03-28 00:56:41

• Indeed. It's one of he few things that macbooks are better than the pros at. Really annoying, especially when you have friends with MBs slouching away without a care in the world!

  by Max on 2008-02-15 18:33:26

• I've recently moved from a 12" G4 PB to a used 2.16GHz C2D 15" MBP. Seemingly the only thing that's wrong with it after having been used to the PB screen tilt ... was this issue. The screen doesn't go back far enough. I'm tall and it is not as comfortable to use as the G4 units. After reading Swing's note, I tried a similar method. I've also put the open MBP upside down on the kitchen bench but instead of pushing gently, simply left it alone with the weight of the unit enough to show a difference. After an hour, it has increased the angle by roughly 8 to 10 degrees. Not a lot but I'll do it again a few times. This way I'm less worried about breaking something. I am concerned though about the ventilation vents at the back of the unit as the wider angle visually seems to make the vents less effective. Thanks to Swing for the suggestion.

  by Marc on 2008-08-26 00:58:25

• The biggest problem i've noticed with the macbook pro is that it looks like it's spying on me. I think it takes my picture every time I reset safari. I ended up putting a bandaid over the lens so it would stop taking my picture.

  by shadrack on 2008-08-27 10:16:24

• Note to Matt: I also saw a Macbook Air (1st gen) in the new Apple Store Honolulu that would tilt way back, but not without ill effects. When I tilted it more than about 120-130 degrees the weight of the screen would make the whole Air tilt backwards! I've never seen this before on any laptop, just shows how extremely light the Air is. Could be easily fixed in the next version by changing the design of the bottom and placing the rubber pads differently, but as the Air also usually won't tilt that much I'm betting nothing will be done.

  by Thomas on 2008-10-28 20:33:40

• Has anyone had any problems since the uni-body's came out? It seems like they got a bit better, but I've had a hard time finding any info about it. Maybe because it's a problem no more?...

  by Adam on 2009-08-18 06:00:44

• Hey Adam, The screen on my new unibody MBP goes back quite a bit; I'm happy with it :)

  by Aral on 2009-08-18 10:45:19

• The angle limitation is most likely to support Apple's claim that the Macbook is not a "laptop" but, well, just a Macbook. If you go to the Apple store complaining that it gets too hot on your lap they will tell you to put it on a table, because they do not market, or ever claim, that it is a laptop. The screen's angle is ideal for a table, and limited so that you end up taking it off your lap.

  by A Distefa on 2009-12-03 04:29:42

• I think the ideal screen would go completely to the floor. IE at 180 degrees. It would then be completely stable . I find that when i am using mine with extra large monitors, the screen itself gets in the way, better to turn that off, push it back as far as it will go and try to pretend it is not in the way of what you are doing...

  by Simon on 2010-06-30 20:14:50

• I think the ideal screen would go completely to the floor. IE at 180 degrees. It would then be completely stable and it would be a design feature in its own right. I find that when i am using mine with extra large monitors, the screen itself gets in the way, better to turn that off, push it back as far as it will go and try to pretend it is not in the way of what you are doing...

  by Simon on 2010-06-30 20:13:46

• Oh, well. It's great in any other way, so that's good.

  by Andrei on 2011-08-16 21:10:21