Su's wet dream
Tim Bray's post dissected:
"Seems straightforward to me. Adobe is in at the center of print production (PhotoShop & friends, InDesign, PDF), while Macromedia's DreamWeaver is the single most important Web-design product."
Adobe ranks very high in print production, however it has only recently begun to overtake Quark with InDesign. Dreamweaver is undoubtedly the king of the visual web editors but anyone who has used the latest versions in earnest knows that it is showing its age. As a geek who hasn't seen the codebase, I get the feeling that it is becoming harder and harder to maintain and scale and that if it were to be extended further, it would require an almost-complete rewrite at some point. I can hardly believe that Adobe would buy Macromedia based on Dreamweaver alone.
Adobe will most likely scrap Dreamweaver and perhaps merge certain parts into GoLive. Remember, Adobe is *buying* Macromedia -- this is *not* a merger. It is only logical to assume that Adobe will favor its own product brand over Macromedia's in those products that are direct competitors.
Also, let's not forget that Adobe is not all about print but a very important player in the digital video field too with Premiere and After Effects.
"Dave Shea says this might be about Flash, but let me suggest exactly the opposite: if you're hitching your career to Flash, it might be a good time to look at alternatives. Why's that? Because, near as I can tell, Macromedia has never made any serious money with Flash."
False: Flash (and Flash-based products and relationships) are Macromedia's #1 cash cow. Ditch Flash and you lose Breeze, Flex, FlashLite (and the Nokia deal) and even the bundling deal with Yahoo, which I understand is quite lucrative. I believe what Tim was trying to say was "Sun has never made any serious money with Java!" (although the likes of IBM and BEA appear to do quite well in this area.) Freudian slip? :)
I would never recommend that you "hitch your career" to any one technology, but stay calm: Although Adobe axing Flash would be Sun's wet dream, Flash isn't going *anywhere* but onwards and up. It is understandable for a Sun employee to be sore that their clunky Java plugin was doomed from the start as a viable RIA platform but Tim can take comfort in knowing that ActionScript 2 is very similar to Java and should he one day decide to experience the joy of building light, usable RIAs, he will be able to do so without much relearning using Flex.
"They've accomplished one of the great, heroic, marketing coups of all time, getting the plug-in onto substantially every desktop on the planet; and this bought them, uh, what exactly?"
Funny: Isn't this what Sun has desperately failed to do with Java? (Not for lack of trying, mind you.) The ubiquity of the player (the Flash *virtual machine*) is a key factor in deciding whether to use Flash in many projects. Beyond that, it means that there is now a ubiquitous platform for video delivery -- not Windows Media, not Quicktime but Flash.
"They sell authoring tools, but seriously, how many Flash designers does the world need?"
I don't know... how many Java designers does the world need? (Not a very meaningful question, is it?)
"Anyhow, most of the good things you can do with Flash, you can do about as well with DHTML (oops that's called AJAX now) and your "back" button still works."
False: AJAX is a hack created to allow a document-markup/display platform to be used for applications. How much of your time do you spend on an HTML + Javascript application in trying to achieve cross-platform compatibility? How much more code is spent to get the AJAX engine hack into place in its hidden frame, etc. How large a chunk of your codebase does this account for? How much time do you spend trying to make *documents* appear/work like *applications*? Given enough time and effort, you can build a skyscraper out of matchsticks but I am loathe to wonder how far the construction field would have advanced if that was the only method they used. Sure, if you have the resources (like Google) to throw at it, build your castle out of matchsticks -- those of us who don't have billions prefer the pragmatic approach of using bricks and mortar, i.e., Flash/Flex. (And I'd love to see HTML + Javascript do video.)
Regarding the back button: Granted it is a hack (no worse than -- and very similar to -- AJAX, mind you), but you *can* get the back button to work in a Flash web site. For an RIA, I would argue that the back button *shouldn't* work as we don't have consistent expectations as to how it should function. Navigating to an application in the browser is like opening an application in the OS -- you do not expect to be able to Undo an application launch.
"I guess there's no reason to actually shut Flash down, the tool revenue must about cover the engineering costs."
The tool revenue, the Flash player revenue from various platforms, the Flex revenue, the Breeze revenue... Shut Flash down? Adobe is buying Macromedia *because of* Flash.
"Flash is a distraction."
Finally, a point we agree on. Flash *must* seem like a terrible distraction at Sun: "Why is everyone so distracted by Flash that they don't see our wonderful applets?" :)
Comments
by JesterXL on 2005-04-20 12:07:28
I'm glad you live in an earlier time zone. I was thinking about writing up an analysis of Bray's post. Now that you've done such a nice job, I don't have to. You saved at least an hour of my time! :-)
FWIW, I doubt Bray's comments represent a management position or policy at Sun. Any thinking person at Sun knows their company invested heavily in Java without any significant financial reward for years. But they all say it was worth doing. Also any thinking person at Sun knows Applets are not a stragic emphasis at Sun. If they were you would see applets to access Sun's E-mail and Calendar server. But there are none - just DHTML/JavaScript clients.
Cheers (and thanks),
-Brian
by Brian Lesser on 2005-04-20 12:28:44
Best regards,
Burak
by Burak KALAYCI on 2005-04-20 14:29:06
by Keith Peters on 2005-04-20 15:57:25
How come regex isn't built into the Flash player? Gotta keep that plugin size down.
Also, having spent many years in both worlds, I'll gladly take the headache (greatly diminished these days) of cross-platform compatibility over the brain tumors Flash has given me trying to recreate functionality all browsers give developers out of the box.
Lastly, Flash developers shouldn't worry too much about what the Adobe merger will do to their business. The tidal wave on the horizon is XAML. No CTO is gonna pay for Flex when he sees what can be done in a cross-browser environemnt without using Flash.
by Charlie on 2005-04-20 15:58:38
First off, sorry we could't come down to see you while in Canada -- it was a last minute decision to attend FITC :)
Note that I was't called Javascript a hack, but AJAX. You would be hard-pressed to argue that i's not -- i's as much a hack as is the back-button hack for Flash applications.
There are definitely certain type of sites and applications for which an HTML-based solution is the best choice. I do't think anyone would push Flash for a document-centric site or application because, as you mention, you would be in the unenviable position of recreating browser functionality. If you do find yourself in this situation, stop, take walk, have a drink and then proceed to build the site/application in HTML :) That said, HTML + Javascript today is being contorted in every-which-way to make it look like a nail because of the limited toolsets (or mindsets) of some technorati when Flash/Flex could provide a lower risk, lower cost, lower hassle solution that is easier to maintain and scale.
I do agree that Xamlon (I believe that was your reference to cross-platform XAML) holds a lot of potential. Whether or not their *solution* is viable, however, depends a lot on the implementation. It is definitely worth keeping an eye on but it is currently not at a stage in which it can be used for real-world development. Flex, on the other hand, is here today and is, without doubt, the most practical, efficient platform for building RIAs that exists in the here-and-now.
There are many unknowns in Xamlo's future, not the least of which is the very real chance that it will be bought up by Microsoft and killed off.
I hope w'll get to see each other during FF NY so I can try and bring you back from the Dark Side :P
by Aral Balkan on 2005-04-20 16:16:55
I don't think Aral wrote that JavaScript is a hack. He wrote that AJAX, or if you prefer, DHTML/JavaScript/etc based apps are. While I think you can and should do good things with AJAX, it is hard to argue that working around competing and changing document object models and inconsistent implementations from browser vendors who won't agree on standards doesn't end up as hacking.
In contrast when you develop in Flash you work to one object model with one version of a scripting language. The object model and scripting language are evolving but when you are developing in Flash you don't have to work around the kind of constantly changing vendor inconsistencies that you do in AJAX. Hence you are not forced to hack.
Both options are improving. Working with DHTML has gotten easier and so has developing feature rich applications in Flash. But you can do some things easily in one environment that are hard to do in the other. In that sense I think Aral has it right. Document-centric work is one thing. Rich full-featured applications is another.
Recently I had a conversation with someone used to working with Windows Media. He showed me a nice example of integrating the Windows Media player into a DHTML based app. Then I showed him this:
http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/story/ and then Breeze. Afterwards, there was no debate about which platform was better for building rich applications.
Yours truly,
-Brian
by Brian Lesser on 2005-04-20 16:34:50
Ignorant pillock to bomb to his home page - any one ?
by pete on 2005-04-20 17:40:43
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/johnreynolds/archive/2005/03/one_step_forwar.html
Cheers,
-Brian
by Brian Lesser on 2005-04-20 18:02:46
do you think you are capable to compete with gmail using flash client?
flash is great thing but has its flaws.
by tyggy on 2005-04-20 18:27:55
http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=60405148&tid=5979
and
http://www.laszlosystems.com/products/modules/mail.php
An app like that is likely easier to do in Flash with components and ActionScript.
-B
by Brian Lesser on 2005-04-20 18:50:05
by tyggy on 2005-04-22 13:46:35